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[Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

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Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

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default [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by Laramie Castiel on 15/05/13, 07:13 pm

I remember having a conversation with some of the people [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about rape in R18+ otome games, and it eventually became a conversation about rape vs. murder in video games. I commented that I don't think rape should be banned, and fiction is ultimately just that- fiction. However, after reading into the controversy some more, I no longer think that it's a double standard for gamers to be fine with killing but be enraged at rape.

However, I still don't think it should get a ban- especially a blanket one that doesn't take how the creators deal with it into consideration.

This video touches upon the issue nicely, though it can't be called unbiased:

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So my question is, what do you guys think?


Last edited by Laramie Castiel on 15/05/13, 08:14 pm; edited 2 times in total

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by Roxas4ever on 15/05/13, 07:24 pm

I don't think rape should be banned, because it IS something that exists, and needs to be dealt with in real life.

That being said, I don't understand this whole subculture with rape fantasy. Why is this a thing that people are into? If you fantasize about being raped, then it's not really rape, is it? Wouldn't it just be S&M? Because wouldn't wanting it to happen be consent? I really don't understand that...someone will have to explain that to me...

That aside, I don't like fiction that glorifies rape/makes it seem like it's an okay thing to do. Also I am not a fan of how much Stockholm syndrome is a thing in otome games. I feel like it's leading some people to believe it's okay to treat people this way, and it's not, and it's not okay to be treated this way either.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by The_Cat_Lady on 15/05/13, 08:07 pm

Laramie Castiel wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
He has a good point - killing can be justified,unlike rape.As
much as I dislike rape,I wouldn't go as far as banning it from fiction -
it does exist in real life,no point in trying to hide it.
Roxas4ever wrote: If you fantasize about being raped, then it's not really rape, is it?
Now you mention it,it isn't really rape.Not at all.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by Laramie Castiel on 15/05/13, 08:11 pm

Roxas4ever wrote:That being said, I don't understand this whole
subculture with rape fantasy. Why is this a thing that people are into?
If you fantasize about being raped, then it's not really rape, is it?
Wouldn't it just be S&M? Because wouldn't wanting it to happen be
consent? I really don't understand that...someone will have to explain
that to me...
The psychology behind a rape fantasy has more to do with emotional and mental gratification rather than physical, for both sides involved (assuming both were interested and did the roleplay). It's like how most other sexual fetishes and fantasies have a deeper psychological reason in many cases.

I'm assuming you're focusing on the receiving end, so I'll explain that in further detail. Rape fantasies are thought to be a manifestation of an extreme desire to be dominated. One with a rape fantasy doesn't want to get beaten and murdered- they typically want an authoritative, domineering and "powerful" person to intensely ravage them; no bars held. It can also be a psychological twist of a desire to be "greatly wanted" by a man- he wants you so much, that he absolutely can't hold himself back- and that turns on these people. The latter is supposedly what is thought to be the reason behind its popularity amongst Japanese otome gamers.

You can just think of a rape fantasy being called a "rape fantasy" because of how they're acted out. Unless you're extremely masochistic, most people, including the people who fantasise about getting raped, don't want to be beaten, killed and then dumped in a river. Rape fantasies are played out in highly controlled environments- using safe words, discussing limits prior to the act, and so on.

I could even jump ahead of the facts already known about rape fantasies, and attempt to briefly analyse why else it could be popular. Is it a coincidence that a majority of otome gamers are single, and are often sexually inexperienced? I don't have cold, hard statistics for this, but I have interacted with MANY otome gamers for a few years, and assuming they're all saying the truth, more are less experienced in those departments. Could their loneliness, fear of real relationships and/or sexual frustration have given birth to such a fantasy?

Roxas4ever wrote:That aside, I don't like fiction that glorifies rape/makes it seem like
it's an okay thing to do. Also I am not a fan of how much Stockholm
syndrome is a thing in otome games. I feel like it's leading some
people to believe it's okay to treat people this way, and it's not, and
it's not okay to be treated this way either.
God, the whole Stockholm syndrome thing is another topic I could go on forever about. It's become the ultimate tool for lazy writing. The protagonists in otome games are typically raped by people they love and trust. In real life, if you were raped by your childhood best friend, it'd ruin your ability to trust forever. If you get the ability back, you certainly won't have it in spades like these horrible protagonists seem to.

I'm especially sick of seeing rape used as a tool to conjure up sympathy- which usually happens in fan fiction.

The debate for as to how much otome games has an influence on women in this capacity still continues, though not frequently brought up. Then there is the whole argument about sexism in Japanese culture. Even in the video gaming culture worldwide, sexism is thought to be pervasive.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by Akuni on 15/05/13, 09:54 pm

I hear what he's saying, and it is kinda sad that people kind of brush over a lot of the other 'bad' aspects of video games and even real life too...

I don't think it should be completely banned in that it is a real issue, I just don't think it should glorified or put in a position where its like "Oh, I can live out my fantasy in video games because I'd never rape someone in real life"

I think it is hypocritical for someone to think a guy who plays rape games or games with rape in it to satiate his whatever when that person might play gorey filled games or games that glorify killing or other things and go, 'But I'd never really [kill] someone in real life, and I mean [rape] is sick'

It is sick, but so is smashing someone's skull in with an axe hammer whatever to raise your kill count. I tried to go through MGS without killing anyone and its hard...the time I stopped playing and really had to take a look at myself is when I shot the solider in all his limbs and he's staring up at Snake begging for his life....telling me about his virtual made up family and I literally had to put my controller down, step away....and just be like omfg What am I doing ;~;

Ever since, I screen all the games I'm thinking about playing before I play them. I know it might sound old fashion but...if I don't agree with it in real life, I don't think I want to knowingly 'play' it out in a virtual world. If that's for you and you don't mind, go ahead but I'm not going to.

As far as it goes in fiction, I guess it turns people on, it is something people think about. I'd use Saya no uta as an example (since its the only VN I've watched the play through of with the rape and murder bit) and it wasn't that bad or scary to me when he attacked and killed and ate his neighbour and friends but when he raped the girl who liked him HO SHIT~! OH NO` WHAT A DICK. And it did make me think darker about the MC when he did it, but why not when he murdered and ate his neighbour, yea I thought he was sick, but not until the rape part did I see him as this horrible unforgiveable beast...

So idk...he has a point.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by shymel on 15/05/13, 10:11 pm

I think it's absolutely creepy how rape is in romance games aimed at women. Not just rape, but things like being drugged and abused by the people who have routes in the games. I think Jim brought up some good points in that video, especially how a lot of the killing in video games is impersonal. A quick shot and you're done, which is not how rape happens. But I wouldn't want it to be banned, as it is fiction. Anybody who claims they did something, such as rape or murder, because of fiction has serious mental problems that needed to have been addressed earlier.


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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by thesleepykitten on 15/05/13, 11:38 pm

I'm averse to rape - mostly because it's clumsily handled in general. It's very rare I see a rape treated realistically, and not just as a tacked-on plot device. If this story *really* needs this rape scene, then keep it. If the story can continue *without* it, drop it.

(What are the stats? 1 out of every 5-6 women admit to being raped/near raped in America? So that's a high % of women who have experienced it and will see it in the media/game/book etc...)

It's something that happens. Even if I find the subject uncomfortable, I don't think it needs to be banned.

Although I agree with those rape fantasies. >_<; For me, it's more I'm *not* expecting them. When I first got into otome, all of the games were pretty much All-Ages so I didn't think I'd come across them. Then I played some games, and there's no real rating, no warning, and bam I come across a rape scene that's treated so... nonchalantly. The girl is raped, there's no consequences to the male, and she *never* brings it up or shows any impact on her emotional state.

So that scene was entirely pointless. If it was to highlight how much of a jerk that guy was, there's other ways.

And then I almost bought a game that really attracted me with the cute graphics, cute everything with its ADORABLE polish. Then I heard about the drugging/near rape/abuse. There was *no* warning about the content. Unless I spoil myself looking up routes, then it defeats the purpose of playing in the first place.

So I agree with shymel with how creepy rape is in romance games. However there seems to be a market for rape fantasies. I just wish it was easier to avoid? Even the all-ages one has the "I can't control myself!" line every now and then, and I just find that unsettling.

TL;DR - Not a fan of rape, but I don't think it needs to be banned. I wouldn't mind if games put a warning label on if it includes rape/near-rape or fantasies involving rape.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by ara-ara on 16/05/13, 07:21 am

It really depends on the story...

I've read a fictional book about rape, but it wasn't about sexual domination and more about guilt and remorse. If more games focused on the aftermath rather than the sex, it might make me read it for character development.

From what I've seen in visual novels or read online about some games though, rape is just for the sexual factor and doesn't contribute to anything else... I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions, but I've hardly seen any.

Either way, I'd prefer it to be fictional rather than non-fictional.

Aside from the actions of rape in a game is the mindset, as Laramie Castiel has said - dominating a person, feeling like they have control... seeing it from that aspect probably gives the player (if they are on that side of the fictional rape) a sense of power in which they may not have in their lives otherwise, for various reasons. If it feeds that part of the brain without actually committing it, I'd rather not have it banned... and possibly, if people have thought about being dominated in this manner without it happening for real, I don't think it should be banned. :confused:

I don't think the topic should be avoided in general, but the way rape is handled really irks me. Though it may be in fictional media, it possibly reinforces some people's unrealistic views about how rape should be handled in real life, and that seems problematic to me.

But I do agree, a warning would be beneficial for people if they are sensitive to the topic and would like to avoid it. On the other hand, I think that the warning is not there explicitly because it would look bad on the company/developers/writers/etc.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by Laramie Castiel on 16/05/13, 07:08 pm

So do you guys think that a lot of the problem(s) come(s) from how poorly it is typically handled?

If a rape was handled realistically, would it interest you guys to see how it affects the protagonist? When rapes in current otome games are handled a bit more realistically, it usually is a bad end with hardly any more story progression.

Do you think a route depicting a realistic reaction of being raped and its after effects should be considered in future R18+ otome games?

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by GlassHeart on 16/05/13, 08:07 pm

To start off, I agree with most of the other replies, I don't think rape should be banned as a whole. I don't exactly remember any rape scenes in games outside of otome ones (and there only a few, as I don't usually play mature games), but I'm sure there are some games that treat it as a serious matter, not just something added as an after thought. Or at least they might exist at some point.

That being said, I don't think a game based solely on rape should exist. Sure, I don't mind killing people in video games, but I know there's at least one game out there that let you torture a helpless person. I could never enjoy that. So yes, it all comes down to *how* it's all handled, in my opinion.

In otome games and even fan fiction I've read, I felt really awkward reading rape scenes and I especially hate the "but she loves him and he eventually falls for her, so it's ok" explanation. It's not ok and she should be psychologically damaged after that, not going around like nothing happened. If nothing else, games including these kind of scenes should have the option to turn them off, since they don't affect the rest of the story much anyway.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by ara-ara on 17/05/13, 08:35 am

Laramie Castiel wrote:So do you guys think that a lot of the problem(s) come(s) from how poorly it is typically handled?

If a rape was handled realistically, would it interest you guys to see how it affects the protagonist? When rapes in current otome games are handled a bit more realistically, it usually is a bad end with hardly any more story progression.

Do you think a route depicting a realistic reaction of being raped and its after effects should be considered in future R18+ otome games?

I've done some research on domestic violence cases in which people would be forced to have sex, but because they were married/in a relationship and/or lived together, the victims didn't see it as rape or coercive, non-consensual sex. Because they had feelings for the other person, they felt they were the only people who understood them enough to help with their issues. That's how I would view games that have rape scenes yet end up at a good ending... or something similar like that.

Well, games are pretty unrealistic and based on fantasy and I'm not going to go blame gaming companies for including it. People who would use games as a medium to handle actual victims of sexual assault afterwards really need to get a reality check. I think it would be beneficial for games to include at least some grain of truth towards handling rape, but not everything because I think it would cause players to shut down and never touch another game made by the company or developers again... too traumatic. Kind of like violent video games - enough to know it's violent, yet not showing a totally realistic depiction of the human anatomy.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by thesleepykitten on 19/05/13, 03:35 am

ara-ara wrote: On the other hand, I think that the warning is not there explicitly because it would look bad on the company/developers/writers/etc.

(If it'll look bad on the company/developers/writers then why include it anyway...?)
At least add this [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] so I *know* if I try the game I can expect scenes like that.

Laramie Castiel wrote:
If a rape was handled realistically, would it interest you guys to see how it affects the protagonist? When rapes in current otome games are handled a bit more realistically, it usually is a bad end with hardly any more story progression.

Nope. Then again I don't like rape in an *otome* setting so it doesn't matter how it's presented or dressed up (fantasy, comedy, drama). It's just not what I'm looking for. There might be some people interested in that, but I doubt companies would try it since it'd probably isolate a lot of fans. (Although if a company somehow tackled it, and it was well-done and fans enjoyed it... Who knows.)

Not sure if the "So do you guys think that a lot of the problem(s) come(s) from how poorly it is typically handled?" was also targeted for me but when I said 'in general' was thinking more like books/movies/comics/manga. I've read/watched a *lot* of media over the years, and some of them contained rape or rape-related issues - some handled well, some so-so, some terrible.

I just don't like stumbling across it in an interactive setting where the whole game is to find romance. x_X

But if people enjoy that type of content in otome, that's fine. Again it's just more warnings, or at least what Saya no Uta did.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by Laramie Castiel on 20/05/13, 01:04 pm

ara-ara wrote:I've done some research on domestic violence cases in which people would
be forced to have sex, but because they were married/in a relationship
and/or lived together, the victims didn't see it as rape or coercive,
non-consensual sex. Because they had feelings for the other person, they
felt they were the only people who understood them enough to help with
their issues. That's how I would view games that have rape scenes yet
end up at a good ending... or something similar like that.

There's a ton of interesting research on these matters, and I've come across similar studies as well. Unfortunately, in many poorer, less developed and sexist cultures and countries, it's unsurprising to find women who think that their husbands can't be rapists for a variety of reasons.

What I find the most offensive (though I'm not personally offended by it, since I've been desensitised to a lot of instances of violence in fiction, as bad as that sounds) is how in quite a few "rape" endings I've come across, the protagonist eventually becomes a borderline-nymphomaniac. What is that supposed to say? If you rape a girl enough times and treat her like horse shit enough, she'll become your personal sex slave? Not only is that so psychologically mistaken it's almost laughable, but it's unabashedly rude to real-life rape victims. Especially those that were raped by the same people over and over again. Ask any of them, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that not even 1% became "sex addicted".

We'll never really know the true psychology behind these protagonists, because they're rarely well-explored. We all know by now that it's the love interests that get all the focus in otome games. That's all well and so on, but this does make it very hard to make rape scenes seem like legitimate plot devices.

In the instances where the guy apologises for raping the protagonist, I can never take it sincerely. Of course they'll come apologising to you once they got their fill. I've never, ever come across any type of otome game that features rapists apologising that convinced me of their sincerity. They treat their assault like it were an ultimately inconsequential inconvenience- like spilling a cup of coffee on her white blouse or something. There is no atonement, no justice and no punishment for their heinous actions. The really bad games have the PROTAGONIST apologising as well.

thesleepkitten wrote:
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That's a well worded, great disclaimer idea.

[quote"thesleepykitten"]Not sure if the "So do you guys think that a lot of the problem(s)
come(s) from how poorly it is typically handled?" was also targeted for
me but when I said 'in general' was thinking more like
books/movies/comics/manga.[/quote]
I wasn't directing that question towards anybody in particular. I just asked that to raise a topic to discuss further.

thesleepykitten wrote:But if people enjoy that type of content in otome, that's fine. Again it's just more warnings, or at least what Saya no Uta did.
So they ended up warning people in the official English version? I've got the fan translation, and it only warned people of the medical procedures being fictitious. Maybe I missed it? Or is it on the official Japanese website? Because No commercial Japanese R18+ I've ever played warned of rape.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by BloodyFallen on 15/11/13, 06:26 am

I think, it is evident in otome games - its aimed towards those who like to be dominated and I'm sure there is a little side of us that is submissive.

Generally, I don't mind but I would like that the people who do play these games, realise that this is a problem in the real world and don't encourage men to do it to innocent individuals.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by LoraDreams on 21/11/13, 02:36 pm

BloodyFallen wrote:I think, it is evident in otome games - its aimed towards those who like to be dominated and I'm sure there is a little side of us that is submissive.

Generally, I don't mind but I would like that the people who do play these games, realise that this is a problem in the real world and don't encourage men to do it to innocent individuals.
I don't think that that is true for everyone. Personally, I don't really have any interest in being dominated. There are other reasons for my interest in otome games. I mostly feel incredibly uncomfortable reading that kind of scenes.

I don't mind rape in fiction if it's addressed in a correct way. With that I mean in a way that realistically depicts the consequences. Just like every other delicate issue in real life, it's better to talk about it, then to ignore it completely. Ignoring a problem, doesn’t make it go away. I do have a problem with it if it's glorified to an unhealthy degree. I understand that some people  like BDSM, which is of course fine, since everyone has his/ her own preference and it’s really nobody’s business. But BDSM is in essence supposed to be safe, sane and consensual. What otome games advertise as BDSM is often nothing more then, well, rape. If I read that a character is supposed to be a Do-S, that almost immediately seems to translate to rapist/abuser, witch of course isn’t true for people with dominant tendencies in real life. Is it really so hard form otome games to depict a guy like that realistically without immediately making him in to a rapist?

I have a more elaborated opinion on this subject, but since English isn’t my first language I’m going to leave it at that, because I don’t want any misunderstandings.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by Takasane on 22/11/13, 06:26 pm

Well, I will say - leave it. I'm totally *okay* with rape being present in games/fanfiction as long as it is there for some kind of reason, not only because the author felt like it. And if there is the 'getting better' phase included. Not - and the next day everything was like nothing happened. Because we all know it's not like this. 

One thing I hate, that happens half of the time, is using rape to show how much the character loves the protagonist (sorry if i confused the terms), because thats bullshit. Nothing good comes from rape. Well, maybe one thing - main character will never again trust dangerous people that are just misunderstood. 

I could say more on this, but as always i think that I'm getting off-topic.

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default Re: [Mature] Rape in fiction: leave it or ban it?

Post by zetsubou on 24/11/13, 06:26 am

As someone who has dealt with rape in her personal life, I don't particularly like the idea of rape being shown in any kind of good light. I also don't like when rape is added to a story to "teach the protag a lesson." Whether it's 'don't trust everyone' or just the rapist trying to get them to obey them. I don't really know what "having a reason" for it to be in there means, honestly. I don't think there's ever a reason for rape. In fiction or non-fiction. 

But it is something that happens, and I don't believe in banning anything from any form of media/art. 

I originally clicked this thread because I thought it was about banning it on the forums, and I was planning on saying that I don't think it should be banned but it would be nice for those of us who have dealt with it before, or even those who just don't like it, if it was posted with a warning. But then I saw the R18+ thread, and I'm very happy there's a warning. Thank you.

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