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Misunderstood Characters

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default Misunderstood Characters

Post by Skeens on 15/04/13, 12:11 am

just as the topic says- here we can discuss otoge characters that are commonly viewed in a wrong light, as people haven't bothered seeing past the character's surface and seeing the deeper part of them.

here's my misunderstood character- ukyo from amnesia! (ikki is also usually misunderstood too, but i wanted to discuss ukyo more _(:3/ <)_ )

people can portray him as someone crazy, or with a personality disorder- hey, maybe he is, but there's a reason for it, and a good one too.
Spoiler:
ukyo has experienced many painful deaths- all for the amnesia heroine. imagine that. not just one painful death, but many, of varying kinds. drowning in mud, in a well, screaming, nobody hearing you. being crushed beneath wreckage. things like that. and when he's not experiencing a painful death, he's watching the heroine, someone who he deeply cares for, die in front of his eyes, and him having nothing he can do. and when he's not watching her die or dying himself, HE KILLS HER WITH HIS OWN BARE HANDS, UNABLE TO CONTROL HIMSELF BECAUSE HIS MIND HAS BECOME SO WRACKED WITH PAIN FROM EXPERIENCING SO MANY DEATHS THAT'S THE ONLY WAY HE CAN COPE
but ukyO HAS THE MOST KINDNESS AND CARE COMPARED TO ANY OF THE OTHER CHARACTERS- ukyo met the heroine after not seeing her for a long time in the beginning of the timeline, but he watched her die in a university explosion. instead of just mourning and getting over it, UKYO WISHED SO HARD FOR HER LIFE THAT A GOD RECOGNIZED HIS WISH AND TRIED TO GRANT IT. JESUS CHRIST UKYO IS SUCH A GOOD CHARACTER OK.
long story short, ANYONE would be driven mad by ukyo's circumstances, and he was never openly bitter about it except when his dark side came out. he sincerely wished for the heroine to be alive, even if it meant him dying so many times, and all the while she didn't even KNOW him because he was world hopping. he had nobody to talk to.

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Post by spicy_diamond on 15/04/13, 12:21 am

Skeens wrote:just as the topic says- here we can discuss otoge characters that are commonly viewed in a wrong light, as people haven't bothered seeing past the character's surface and seeing the deeper part of them.

here's my misunderstood character- ukyo from amnesia! (ikki is also usually misunderstood too, but i wanted to discuss ukyo more _(:3/ <)_ )

people can portray him as someone crazy, or with a personality disorder- hey, maybe he is, but there's a reason for it, and a good one too.
Spoiler:
ukyo has experienced many painful deaths- all for the amnesia heroine. imagine that. not just one painful death, but many, of varying kinds. drowning in mud, in a well, screaming, nobody hearing you. being crushed beneath wreckage. things like that. and when he's not experiencing a painful death, he's watching the heroine, someone who he deeply cares for, die in front of his eyes, and him having nothing he can do. and when he's not watching her die or dying himself, HE KILLS HER WITH HIS OWN BARE HANDS, UNABLE TO CONTROL HIMSELF BECAUSE HIS MIND HAS BECOME SO WRACKED WITH PAIN FROM EXPERIENCING SO MANY DEATHS THAT'S THE ONLY WAY HE CAN COPE
but ukyO HAS THE MOST KINDNESS AND CARE COMPARED TO ANY OF THE OTHER CHARACTERS- ukyo met the heroine after not seeing her for a long time in the beginning of the timeline, but he watched her die in a university explosion. instead of just mourning and getting over it, UKYO WISHED SO HARD FOR HER LIFE THAT A GOD RECOGNIZED HIS WISH AND TRIED TO GRANT IT. JESUS CHRIST UKYO IS SUCH A GOOD CHARACTER OK.
long story short, ANYONE would be driven mad by ukyo's circumstances, and he was never openly bitter about it except when his dark side came out. he sincerely wished for the heroine to be alive, even if it meant him dying so many times, and all the while she didn't even KNOW him because he was world hopping. he had nobody to talk to.

Yep! Ukyo would be my first thought for characters with the potential to be misunderstood. But I think part of it, in this case, also boils down to the anime vs game gap. The anime explained so very little. (Other than Toma.) Which makes it easier for people to wave off characters.

Including, as I've noticed, the Heroine herself. There's been a lot of the anime crowd just waving her off as useless and submissive and never talks. But it seems like a good deal of them are missing the point that she has amnesia. And, if people are the sum of their experiences, then yes it makes sense for her to seem out of touch.

Add to that the paranoia of what might happen to her if the wrong person finds out she has no memories. (We didn't get it as much in the anime, but Orion repeats this warning endlessly in the games.) I'd think being quiet and cautious would be the normal reaction.

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Post by Skeens on 15/04/13, 12:23 am

yeah, i totally agree!! but i don't think that amnesia anime portrayed toma very well sad some of my friends thought he was seriously gonna rape her-- i was under the impression he was just trying to scare her into submission because he was really worried about her, though i may be wrong??

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Post by Topaztan on 15/04/13, 12:24 am

Honestly, after playing Ukyo's route my heart felt really heavy.
Spoiler:
I agree, I would go insane too, after all that. Anyone would- but because Heroine-chan hasn't seen the full story the way us players have it would be so hard for her to accept Ukyo... I mean, he is mentally unstable and that would be really scary. But it's for love so it's totally OK. Also, the way you passionately explained how awesome Ukyo is I totally pictured him as a Puella Magi. I'm sorry.

Though I would say that all the boys in Amnesia are misunderstood. (Toma isn't a rapist- he's just protective okay. >O>!!) Heck, even the Heroine is misunderstood, and I agree this mostly comes from the way the anime was done. I mean the anime was really, really pretty but I felt more confused after watching the anime. lllOTL.

ALSO FREAKING OKAY THE HEROINE IS NOT WEAK- SHE IS PASSIVE.



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Post by spicy_diamond on 15/04/13, 02:45 am

Topaztan wrote:Honestly, after playing Ukyo's route my heart felt really heavy.
Spoiler:
I agree, I would go insane too, after all that. Anyone would- but because Heroine-chan hasn't seen the full story the way us players have it would be so hard for her to accept Ukyo... I mean, he is mentally unstable and that would be really scary. But it's for love so it's totally OK. Also, the way you passionately explained how awesome Ukyo is I totally pictured him as a Puella Magi. I'm sorry.

Though I would say that all the boys in Amnesia are misunderstood. (Toma isn't a rapist- he's just protective okay. >O>!!) Heck, even the Heroine is misunderstood, and I agree this mostly comes from the way the anime was done. I mean the anime was really, really pretty but I felt more confused after watching the anime. lllOTL.

ALSO FREAKING OKAY THE HEROINE IS NOT WEAK- SHE IS PASSIVE.

Point for the bit on Toma. As much as I don't like him, he isn't a rapist. Rather, he's standoffish to the point that it was more creepy because he wasn't a rapist. He just wants to put her in a cage on a pedestal where no one can touch her and he can admire her from afar.

(And in the Wonderland drama, he watches her sleep for 100 years. That's a whole new level of no touchy creep-ness.)

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Post by Topaztan on 15/04/13, 05:20 am

spicy_diamond wrote:
(And in the Wonderland drama, he watches her sleep for 100 years. That's a whole new level of no touchy creep-ness.)

That is a whole new level or self-control. I level I will never reach, yay temptation.

But, IRL rape is a control thing, and locking someone in a cage is more of a possessive, creepy, protective thing. So, even though it is no-touch creepy, it is all for LOVEEEE. Also I think that because Toma never really does anything it implies in itself that he doesn't think he is good enough for Heroine-chan and this makes him paranoid. He has self-esteem issues you can interpret just from his behavior.

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Post by spicy_diamond on 15/04/13, 07:51 am

Topaztan wrote:

That is a whole new level or self-control. I level I will never reach, yay temptation.

But, IRL rape is a control thing, and locking someone in a cage is more of a possessive, creepy, protective thing. So, even though it is no-touch creepy, it is all for LOVEEEE. Also I think that because Toma never really does anything it implies in itself that he doesn't think he is good enough for Heroine-chan and this makes him paranoid. He has self-esteem issues you can interpret just from his behavior.

I'd agree with that, in Toma's case, it does seem like he has self-esteem issues. And, I'd even go one further and say part of it probably stems from self-identity issues - He's so caught up in being the 'perfect older brother' figure that he doesn't know how to break out of the barriers he set for himself. That he might try to take their relationship that next step and screw it up terrifies him. But, if he stays in the older brother role, he thinks he'll lose her anyway. And, once he gets trapped in the cycle of believing he's going to lose her either way, that's we get the cage.

And while the cage (and the sleeping medicine) do point to certain control issues - he wants to keep things from changing, and keep her safe with him, so he's essentially trying to stop time - he is conscious that what he's doing is wrong and he never takes it further than that. Things just sort of snowball from there.

It certainly doesn't justify his behavior, mind, but it does take a step towards explaining it.

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Post by Topaztan on 15/04/13, 08:46 am

spicy_diamond wrote:

I'd agree with that, in Toma's case, it does seem like he has self-esteem issues. And, I'd even go one further and say part of it probably stems from self-identity issues - He's so caught up in being the 'perfect older brother' figure that he doesn't know how to break out of the barriers he set for himself. That he might try to take their relationship that next step and screw it up terrifies him. But, if he stays in the older brother role, he thinks he'll lose her anyway. And, once he gets trapped in the cycle of believing he's going to lose her either way, that's we get the cage.

And while the cage (and the sleeping medicine) do point to certain control issues - he wants to keep things from changing, and keep her safe with him, so he's essentially trying to stop time - he is conscious that what he's doing is wrong and he never takes it further than that. Things just sort of snowball from there.

It certainly doesn't justify his behavior, mind, but it does take a step towards explaining it.


THIS.
^^^^
I think the issues are even more relevant the more you see of Toma because you learn that he is certainly aware of his issues and tends to self-deprecate himself. But you basically said everything a lot of people seem to miss.

Though most of the characters and their actions in Amnesia have really poor justifications, besides, you know LOVEEEE for Heroine-chan. (Eps. in Ukyo's case.)

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Post by spicy_diamond on 15/04/13, 09:17 am

[quote="Topaztan"]
spicy_diamond wrote:

THIS.
^^^^
I think the issues are even more relevant the more you see of Toma because you learn that he is certainly aware of his issues and tends to self-deprecate himself. But you basically said everything a lot of people seem to miss.

Though most of the characters and their actions in Amnesia have really poor justifications, besides, you know LOVEEEE for Heroine-chan. (Eps. in Ukyo's case.)

I wouldn't necessarily say that Ukyo's actions have poor justification. He loves her enough that he's wants to see her happy, even if that means she's not with him.
Spoiler:

But, he can't because neither of them are able to live past the date barrier and be in the same world at the same time. And while, the Heroine has no memory of this. Ukyo gets caught dying over and over trying to see his wish through. (Really, he's only running on Neil's power, which further drains Neil and just makes more of a muck of things, but Ukyo is technically half dead. And that's more than enough to drive anyone insane.) And his, very human, desire to live at any cost becomes personified in his other self.

Add to that the fact that, for the longest time, his wish to see her happy is so strong that we get to the point where he can't simply die, and stay dead, and wish her happiness. The wish doesn't let him. (At least, not until Neil's power is drained at the very end, which is where we finally enter the scene.) ...It all just feeds on an endless loop until it hits the breaking point.

Which, for me, gives more justification to Ukyo's actions because his love really is based in selflessness, where in Toma we only get to see his covetousness.

Also? Kent... I wouldn't really call that being justified by love. That's more social awkwardness to the next level. (And, unlike the rest of our stooges, Kent, out of all people, is the only one to bring up clear communication as a means to bettering their relationship. That's Healthy Dating 101 right there.)

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Post by Topaztan on 15/04/13, 09:36 am

spicy_diamond wrote:
Though most of the characters and their actions in Amnesia have really poor justifications, besides, you know LOVEEEE for Heroine-chan. (Eps. in Ukyo's case.)

I wouldn't necessarily say that Ukyo's actions have poor justification. He loves her enough that he's wants to see her happy, even if that means she's not with him.
Spoiler:

But, he can't because neither of them are able to live past the date barrier and be in the same world at the same time. And while, the Heroine has no memory of this. Ukyo gets caught dying over and over trying to see his wish through. (Really, he's only running on Neil's power, which further drains Neil and just makes more of a muck of things, but Ukyo is technically half dead. And that's more than enough to drive anyone insane.) And his, very human, desire to live at any cost becomes personified in his other self.

Add to that the fact that, for the longest time, his wish to see her happy is so strong that we get to the point where he can't simply die, and stay dead, and wish her happiness. The wish doesn't let him. (At least, not until Neil's power is drained at the very end, which is where we finally enter the scene.) ...It all just feeds on an endless loop until it hits the breaking point.

Which, for me, gives more justification to Ukyo's actions because his love really is based in selflessness, where in Toma we only get to see his covetousness.

Also? Kent... I wouldn't really call that being justified by love. That's more social awkwardness to the next level. (And, unlike the rest of our stooges, Kent, out of all people, is the only one to bring up clear communication as a means to bettering their relationship. That's Healthy Dating 101 right there.)[/quote]
Spoiler:

Well, I meant the whole endless loop of depressing sadness all comes from the fact that Ukyo really, truly loves Heroine-chan. And Neil had good intentions, I think, but really it didn't work out at all. Ukyo gave his life for the Heroine, multiple times, ever since I finished the route I always thought that he really loved the Heroine more than any of the others- I don't remember the last otome I played where someone was that dedicated.
It's unfortunate because of Amnesia's darker nature that Ukyo & Heroine-chan can never have a proper relationship.


Fffft, Kent. Kent gets points because he is the most mentally stable one.
Spoiler:
Though you can kind of blame him for being a huge liar to Heroine-chan, after all she did hate him. He never really lied about it though, just didn't talk about it. Though it does become obvious he loves the Heroine-chan too, and wouldn't want her to regain her memories of him from before. Which is selfish, but. I felt Kent's route was so much lighter and like a relief to play through without anything TERRIBLE happening. Well, what I was trying to say is that a lot of his comments are justified by love for the heroine, less his actions, more his words. WHICH IS IRONIC BECAUSE HE DOESN'T TALK A LOT IN OTHER PARTS OF THE GAME. HA. IRONY.


Last edited by Topaztan on 15/04/13, 09:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : because I ramble)

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Post by Aiwethryne on 24/01/14, 02:24 am

I agree that most everyone in Amnesia was misunderstood, but that is how stories happen~ The lack of empathy causes wars and discrimination in any type of story, and pretty much any otoge character has those hidden thoughts or unknown past that spurs on a plethora of misconceptions. It is the common action of characters to never explain or listen to others. Holds true even in real life.

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Post by ColletteRen on 24/01/14, 06:30 pm

To many games with misunderstood characters. I do agree greatly with the Amnesia cast [more so now too since I've played Amnesia/Amnesia Later, haven't gotten to Crowd yet]. We all know the reasons at this point so I'm not going to bother talking about that =p
It's not even the main cast that gets misunderstood though, even some of the side characters do as well. In conclusion, the whole Amnesia world is a giant ball of making you use your brain to actually understand a character. Soon as you think you know how one is, they suddenly change that but in an interesting way that makes you keep playing.

The only other character from a different game that I feel is misunderstood is Mink [from DMMd] but I don't think this is the place to talk about that =p

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Post by Guest on 24/01/14, 09:06 pm

Pesonal Opinion so far on each amnesia character: mou~ 

Agreed about the heroine from amnesia. she cant help it she has amnesia that's the main point of the game/anime.And not to mention when you have amnesia you don't know who to trust..

Still not sure where I stand with ukyo.. he may be growing on me only in certain cases when he's a softy (his seiyuu ohhh his seiyuu gives me a nosebleed ) what i  really worry about is  
Spoiler:
if he was also psycho BEFORE the heroine died and she couldn't get away from him in either world..
(crazy theory maybe?) 

- Toma- I was in loooove with this character like "oooh this is great!" up until the moment when he
Spoiler:
drugged me,kept me as a hermit and locked me up in a cage I..just ack! I can't get over it.
 all he needed to do was to calmly tell what was going on (haha so logical o.o) (i feel this  was Iki's/ fan club's issue and not  for Toma to deal with. )

Shin- didn't bother me at all but I felt bad about his father and all. sometimes he would get too angry 

Iki-makes perfect sense to me how his character is.
Spoiler:
being a ladies man became  sort of like a curse to him when you come around.his little fan girl group was annoying as heck
(i know that's probably over said lol)

Kent-soo busy but soo hot. Only thing I wish is that he would have had a bit more more emotion ( yes i know that sounds mean..) im not picking on him and y'know hehe hes my favorite.. 

and of course I don't want to excuse
 any certain uncomfortable behavior out of anyone.. Very Mad 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
separate matter-
I have also heard people  whine about Haruka
 from Uta no Prince sama being "so weak"
shes another example of how she can't help being weak because she was born that way. Regardless she always works so hard to put together songs for everyone and to make people happy. I think it sometimes depends on the characters personality and story but i usually cut characters some slack for things they can't help.


Last edited by otaku17 on 25/01/14, 08:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Laramie Castiel on 25/01/14, 03:08 am

I'm not a moderator, but I'd like to remind people to please hide spoilers! I've seen a few Amnesia spoilers here already, so just be careful. Yes, many people have played Amnesia to completion, but since a lot of newcomers to otome come here, again, just be careful. If you have posted here, please do a once-over and hide any sensitive information.

Anyway, I don't think these misunderstandings just apply to decent characters being interpreted as bad. I think it goes the other way, too. For example, the rapist characters. Some otome readers like to come up with all sorts of Freudian excuses for them. You can excuse why they behave a certain way, but not excuse the act itself.

Short of the guy being drugged/coerced/mind-controlled into that kind of behaviour, it baffles me why some girls defend that kind of bullshit just because in another route, they behave okay. I think they're forgetting that these guys will assault their lovers if they don't get their way.

Even more insulting than rape apologist nonsense these type of fans spew out is how ridiculously easily rapist characters get forgiven by the protagonist (at least, to an extent where the protagonist can fall in love with them and have a happy relationship).

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Post by ColletteRen on 25/01/14, 04:10 am

Laramie Castiel wrote:Anyway, I don't think these misunderstandings just apply to decent characters being interpreted as bad. I think it goes the other way, too. For example, the rapist characters. Some otome readers like to come up with all sorts of Freudian excuses for them. You can excuse why they behave a certain way, but not excuse the act itself.

Short of the guy being drugged/coerced/mind-controlled into that kind of behaviour, it baffles me why some girls defend that kind of bullshit just because in another route, they behave okay. I think they're forgetting that these guys will assault their lovers if they don't get their way.

Even more insulting than rape apologist nonsense these type of fans spew out is how ridiculously easily rapist characters get forgiven by the protagonist (at least, to an extent where the protagonist can fall in love with them and have a happy relationship).

I would like to add that in some games for this case the protagonist never does fully forgive what that character did. I've seen a few games now where it seems they may have but they make notes [direct or not] that it's still something that worries and pains them. There are some games where the protagonist does indeed forgive that character way to easily but in more cases then one he doesn't or they find something powerful enough to move the story forwards to get it to that "love each other" point. 

Think it's just a writing thing for some cases, and a wall of languages cause when games are translated to English, they can lose information or the translators will take on their own view of a character instead of the intended view.

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Post by Laramie Castiel on 25/01/14, 06:33 am

ColletteRen wrote:I would like to add that in some games for this case the protagonist never does fully forgive what that character did. I've seen a few games now where it seems they may have but they make notes [direct or not] that it's still something that worries and pains them. There are some games where the protagonist does indeed forgive that character way to easily but in more cases then one he doesn't or they find something powerful enough to move the story forwards to get it to that "love each other" point. 

Think it's just a writing thing for some cases, and a wall of languages cause when games are translated to English, they can lose information or the translators will take on their own view of a character instead of the intended view.

That's why I said, "at least, to an extent where the protagonist can fall in love with them and have a happy relationship." I do see what you're getting at, though- some games do try to show how hurt the protag was. In most cases, I find it bizarre on a psychological level that the protag would be able to trust the love interest again.

I'm pretty much fluent with Japanese, so I don't have to read it in English or guess the contexts. At present, there is only one English R18+ otome game, and that's an OELVN. PersonA is getting a translation, which is incidentally, an offender of this in one of its routes.

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Post by belovedchaos1 on 24/01/15, 05:31 am

I agree with a lot of peoples points on here.... But I can't help but think that what it dwindles down to is what people feel is reasonable and unreasonable... or acceptable and unacceptable for them personally.

I too have always loved Ukyo. I think people who have suffered at some point in their life (most of us) can at least try to imagine what something like that would be like. I know if I would of been put into a position that Ukyo was in.... I'd of probably split as well.... to cope. To function... I think we all would... or would of done something worse.

Same with Toma... I do understand the reasoning... but GOD MAN
Spoiler:
A CAGE!?
Really? Couldn't there of been other ways? Like asking her to stay for those reasons....

It depends on what you as the heroine would deal with. Pros vs cons.

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